Typical Pro-Slaughter Activist Argument

Oh the joys of arguing with a pro-slaughter activist!

Crime Crawlers wrote a piece on Stacy Kempf and her little house of horrors which I did comment on regarding the story.  Then, an idiot pro-slaughter activist came along – as always – and comments to the effect of “this is what you get for banning horse slaughter”.  I refuted that one (similar to below) but then a slew of comments later another idiot pro-slaughter activist comes along who actually puts up a fight.  This entire argument has been copied and pasted with no changes (as you can see at the link above, with the exception of removal of extraneous information in the last three comments).  This goes to prove my point that pro-slaughter activists use all the “Rules” that Equine Welfare Alliance listed.  The following Rules were definitely used:

Rule #11: Ignore that slaughter is still very much available and blame all horse woes on the closure of the plants. To fully utilize this rule, under no circumstance, mention or blame the economy. The impact of the economy does not play a role in the horse industry. That is the only industry in Americathat would not have been impacted by the economy if the slaughter plants had remained opened.

Rule #12: Ignore the horrific investigations and FOIAs and always state that slaughter is a good thing

Rule #13: Never discuss present society and culture. Always refer to 70 or more years ago when some people were forced to eat horse meat but make it sound like present day and thus, you may be able to create a false market in theUS.

Rule #16: Ignore all studies and data on abuse and neglect.

Rule #20: Never directly answer a question, especially when facts are requested. Doubletalk and then change the subject. It is imperative this rule be invoked when asked to discuss the drug issue and how unsafeUShorses are for human consumption.

Rule #21: Learn the art of spinning. Always accuse the pro-horse advocates of being emotional, attack their credibility and spin the facts. This is especially important when indisputable facts are provided. When footage or photos are provided, be sure to state with authority they are fake or have been altered. Always state that because they are against slaughter that they are responsible for the horses suffering.

Only one other person argued Ron’s first comment, but I did get a bit of help near the end from the blogs author ThinkGoat.

ron

I hope everybody is happy that horses cannot be slaughtered in this country anymore. You can expect to see more scenes like this one. It would have been just as controversial if this woman would have euthanized these horses by shooting or drugs. like the guy inquincywho shot his dog because it like to bite. Too many double standards… what about the guy who was caught having sex with sheep..which is worse starving horses or raping sheep??

April 9, 2011 at 8:16 pm

thinkgoat

@Ron Congratulations. Your post just made the “most ridiculous” list.

April 9, 2011 at 10:13 pm

ron

it may be ridiculous but it is true. The guy fromquincywas arrested for shooting his dog on cruelty charges, now it is illegal to fire a weapon in town but those weren’t the charges. Now if that dog had mauled a child would that be better? The sheep guy was caught “in the saddle” so to speak, it had been suspected for quite a while. That was swept under the rug, I don’t know how those laws are. This happened in an open pasture, the sheep stood still for him, does that make them consenting?

April 10, 2011 at 7:10 am

Amber

Quote: “I hope everybody is happy that horses cannot be slaughtered in this country anymore. You can expect to see more scenes like this one. It would have been just as controversial if this woman would have euthanized these horses by shooting or drugs. like the guy inquincywho shot his dog because it like to bite. Too many double standards… what about the guy who was caught having sex with sheep..which is worse starving horses or raping sheep??”

Lol, I’ve never understood the arguement that just because you can’t send a horse to slaughter in the US, that means that more horses will be starved or abused. That’s just stupid. Even if you’re dead broke (or just dead lazy, like most animal abusers), it really doesn’t cost much to put a bullet in the horse.
And anyway, why the heck do you have horses if you can’t afford them, or don’t want them? It might take a lot of effort to find homes for your horses (I know, it takes SO much effort to groom a horse, take a few photos, and tape sale flyers up), but it is not impossible to do. Anyone who lets their horses starve is A) lazy B) mentally retarded or C) all of the above.
Honestly, the slaughter houses (or lack there of) aren’t the problems. It’s all the irresponsible breeders and owners who produce worthless horses, over and over again, and then decide slaughter is an easy option to get rid of the mess. No slaughter houses? Then it stands to reason that you’d be more careful about checking the quality of horses you want to breed. However, it appears that a majority of animals breeders in the US are without common sense, so they have just decided to continue breeding as they always have…
Again, how hard is it to humanely put down a horse, or at least shoot it? It isn’t terribly difficult, last time I checked.
It’s rather annoying that we don’t have a horse group willing to make a plan to take care of unwanted horses (broken down horses, or worthless horses), and then put breeding guidelines into place (like, OMG, actually having QUALITY horses bred together, horses that actually have decent body shape, and won’t break down at age 5, horses people actually want). I won’t even start to talk about creating a permit for horse owners (like that you actually need to know about horses, before buying one).

April 10, 2011 at 12:41 pm

ron

My point is that there will be public outrage if someone does elect to put a horse down with a gun.

Another point is at least when there was a slaughter market, there was always a salvage market for unwanted animals, the horse owner didn’t have to pay a vet to put one down, put one down with a gun and then make arrangements to dispose (bury) horses don’t fit in shoe boxes.

There have been several cases where horses have been turned loose to fend for themselves and starving.

There are two groups of horse owners just like there is two groups of harley owners, one group which can afford them and the other group which will do anything and mortgage everything just to possess one. I know alot of idividuals in the second group, they are always complaining about financial problems, but they keep overspending by keeping horses and never seem to learn until it is too late.

April 10, 2011 at 1:40 pm

Not A Breed

@ron
As I stated to the last person who idiotically tried to link the closure of slaughter plants in the US to the neglect of horses…
The same numbers of horses are killed each year… they’re just shipped to Canada and Mexico.
FACT:
The number of U.S. horses killed in Mexico alone (so, not counting those killed inCANADA) in 2008 exceeded the total killed in theU.S. during the whole of 2004.

So, since the same numbers are being slaughtered, how did the closures affect neglect? It didn’t.

Oh, and don’t bother considering the ecological MESS slaughter houses create, and the tax drain on small towns… and the meat loaded with Phenylbutazone (among other drugs) which causes blood dyscrasias, including aplastic anemia, leukopenia, agranulocytosis, thrombocytopenia, and deaths.

Horses are NOT raised as food-chain animals, so therefore are not monitored and treated as food-chain animals.

As for bestiality, it is illegal in many states. Look it up. I don’t know about the case you’re talking about in particular, but why don’t you (a) actually explain what you’re talking about and (b) link to it? That just MIGHT help the conversation.

Sheesh!

April 11, 2011 at 7:02 am

ron

not a breed, do you mean that horses are being purchased at sale barns inIllinoisand being transported toMexicofor slaughter?

There is a demand for horse meat and it has grown globally the past few years. I believe there should be a program for finishing drug free horses for consumption.

There is no link for the bestiality case, it was kinda of swept under the rug. The individual was charged with trespassing since he was going in another man’s pasture. I think the farmer didn’t want to be in the news. A few months later the sheep raper was arrested for public indecency and soliciting sex from an undercover agent at a state park.

April 11, 2011 at 8:04 am

rehomeyourhorse

First off, most horses going to slaughter come from auction houses.
Most.

There are meat buyers out there that surf the internet looking for “free to good home” ads, or horses advertised for cheap. They lie to the owners and tell them the horse is for their grandchild / a companion / will be treated nice… etc. Then the horse is on its way to slaughter.

Those horses are transported to Mexico and Canada to be slaughtered for human consumption, mostly overseas.

Secondly, what do you mean “program for finishing drug free horses for consumption”? Do you mean raise them as food-chain animals for human consumption? If so, that is the only reason any horse should be slaughtered for human consumption.

If you mean let them hang out in a feedlot for six months while they “detox”, you’re sorely mistaken.
Phenylbutazone, along with several other drugs found in (for example) dewormers, are NEVER to be given to food-chain animals. They NEVER “detox” these drugs from their system.

If you want to actually learn a bit about horse slaughter (which I would suggest you do before leaving comments like you do), might I suggest you read any of the articles listed on my horse slaughter articles page:https://notabreed.wordpress.com/horse-slaughter-articles/

April 11, 2011 at 8:52 am

rehomeyourhorse

Also, might I suggest that many, many people feel a bullet to the head (by someone who knows what they’re doing) in his own pasture is an acceptable end for a horse.

Yes, many people would prefer humane euthanasia by a veterinarian. But done properly the bullet to the head is fine. The reason I say “in his own pasture” is because most horses are not afraid there. Instead, horses are run through auctions, transported for sometimes days without food and water, then are slaughtered inhumanely.

I think anyone here, ANYONE would say that a properly done bullet to the head would be MUCH more preferable than slowly starving to death locked in a paddock they can’t get out of.

People… am I wrong?

April 11, 2011 at 8:57 am

Not A Breed

Ha ha… ReHomeYourHorse and NotABreed are sister sites, and I was working on both on and off while answering your questions…

Today ReHomeYourHorse IS NotABreed. Sorry ’bout that!!

April 11, 2011 at 9:28 am

Not A Breed

@ron
You say “There is a demand for horse meat and it has grown globally the past few years.”

Please site your references.

(‘Cause this I gotta see.)

April 11, 2011 at 9:30 am

ron

Here are a few links:

http://www.eques.com.au/FEB-08/horse_slaughter_in_australia.htm

http://forum.catchride.com/index.php?/topic/751-whats-on-your-plate-horses/

http://cjonline.com/stories/041201/bus_horsemeat.shtml

http://brevard.ifas.ufl.edu/Agriculture/PDF/House1%20Unwanted%20Horses%202009.pdf

http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P2-18337282.html

It looks like retired racehorses make a popular meat resource.

April 11, 2011 at 6:04 pm

Not A Breed

Your first link, which is from Australia and isn’t dated but I assume is at least since 2007 since they mention that slaughter has been banned in the US… they ASSUME there will be an increase: “If Japan is one of our biggest importers of horse meat it is reasonable to ASSUME that we will see an increased demand for horse meat processed by the SA and QLD abattoirs as Tuna Stocks continue to decline and prices rise.|

Your second link, from 2001(!!) again, assumes:
“Worried that the outbreak of mad cow disease in Europe COULD increase demand for American horse meat, they are striving to enact similar laws elsewhere.”

Your third link, AGAIN from 2001 is blatantly untrue today:
“The increased demand for horse meat is also pushing up prices for recreational horses because the horse’s salvage value is higher, he said.” Considering the price of “salvage value” has obviously bottomed-out. If there WAS such an increase, the value would be higher. Simple economics.

Your fourth link doesn’t even WORK.

And your fifth link I didn’t even bother really reading, since it too is from 2001 and just reiterates what the other obviously outdated and irrelevant links said.

Nice try buddy.

April 11, 2011 at 10:30 pm

thinkgoat

@ Not A Breed – I was really hoping for a wiki link or two thrown in for good measure.

I’ve learned a tremendous amount from reading your posts. Thank you for finding us and sharing your knowledge.

Actually I’ve learned an incredible amount from reading many posts on here. I don’t foresee being a horse owner myself (I’m a small animal person currently raising sugar gliders) but your compassion and intellect is infectious and I thank you all.

April 11, 2011 at 10:37 pm

Not A Breed

Wow. Thank you so much thinkgoat! I take that as high praise coming from you.

Sorry I hijacked your thread… AGAIN.
I just can’t take these idiots who spout crap all over the place. I’m afraid some person will come along and believe it.

Plus, they’re so easy to fuck with.

April 11, 2011 at 10:43 pm

thinkgoat

Hijack anytime. I’ve enjoyed the display immensely.

April 11, 2011 at 10:48 pm

ron

not a breed here is another link, read it slowly and carefully

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/19/opinion/19iht-edjohnson.1.13829773.html

6 years ago I was going to get into the horse brokering for slaughter business as I could buy alot of horses in the range of 40 to 50 cents per pound and the slaughter price was 70 to 75 cents

April 12, 2011 at 8:54 pm
 

thinkgoat

Note: That link is an opinion piece.

April 12, 2011 at 9:05 pm

ron

it is backed up with statistics

April 12, 2011 at 9:08 pm

thinkgoat

What facts, exactly? Where are those “facts” sourced?

April 12, 2011 at 9:23 pm

Not A Breed

Aaah thinkgoat… I think I love you.
I like how you’re looking through this stuff to see some truth.

There is a lot of shit out there that the pro-slaughter activists like to say – but they never back it up with anything. Unfortunately, the “information” gets passed around as truth. It’s what they strive to do. Muddy the water. But then when they’re faced with cold hard facts, they won’t respond, won’t prove what they’re saying, and then bitch and whine and throw more shit out to muddy the waters. It is never a sane, logical, factual conversation.

Ron, the big bold OPINION at the top of the page should have been your first red flag. Also, there are very few FACTS. Rarely do they have to prove anything they even write when writing an opinion piece. Get it? Opinion? The writer quotes the president of French Fédération de la Boucherie Hippophagique who he met behind the market? Ok.

I can point out one “fact” in the article that is completely erroneous. Wanna guess which one?

Now I’ll rip apart a few things the writer said:

“The mythic image of the noble horse in American history has weighed most heavily in the anti-horse meat campaign in the United States.” Um, what? That is ONE argument used. I love how he picks the weakest argument out there too. Again, what about the ecological mess? What about the tax drain? What about the DRUGS? What about the fact most people consider horses PETS, not food animals?
Most recently the EU has been putting tougher regulations on imported horse meat in particular. Why? Because they didn’t KNOW the horse meat was tainted! They also didn’t KNOW the practices that are in place here for slaughter, let alone the practices shady meat buyers use to obtain horses.

And when the writer talks about the slaughter processes not being inhumane, he’s talking about European practices. So again, that is not touching on the subject of North American practices.

I’m outta here for the night and probably most of tomorrow… but feel free to throw some more “facts” my way to refute. I especially love that the only slightly current (it’s from 2008) article you can come up with that has anything to “back” your comments is an opinion piece. Show me FACTS buddy.

April 12, 2011 at 10:08 pm

ron

the article was based on statistics

what ecological mess are you talking about?

what tax drain?

in what universe do these things occur?

drugs? this article wasn’t about drugs, if there is a problem with drugs than measures need to be taken (testing, withdrawal periods,etc)

people consider horses to be pets, no shit sherlock, that is the point I have been trying to make about avoiding proper euthanasia

I was talking about world wide demand for horse meat not theU.S.

but what about the blackmarket horsemeat market inFlorida

April 13, 2011 at 6:33 am

Not A Breed

o.m.g.
Did you read ANY comments above, other than your own?
Wow.

(edit in: what I was trying to do here was get him to actually read the letter by the mayor – it was obvious he hadn’t.  Also I did mention the drugs specifically and the fact they are known carcinogens.)

April 13, 2011 at 6:39 am

Not A Breed

Sorry, here, let me point something out:
rehomeyourhorse commented above. Read THOSE.

April 13, 2011 at 6:43 am

ron

I did read the rehomeyourhouse post and nobody supported it……that is why I brought up the situation with guy who shot his own dog.

are there any links about the decrease in the demand for horsemeat?

did Oprah tell people not to eat horsemeat?

April 15, 2011 at 11:04 pm

Not A Breed

“Nobody supported it.” What? Nobody supported WHAT?? What the hell are you even talking about?

You ask if there is a link about the decrease in demand for horse meat… please point out where I said there was a decrease? I don’t recall saying that, and I just reread all my posts, and don’t see anything. I also searched the page, and the FIRST instance of the word “decrease” is in your comment directly above this one. So, either point out exactly where I supposedly said that, or quit trying to muddy the waters.

And I get your little sarcastic reference to Oprah telling people not to eat horse meat (which, BTW is two words, not one – see, I can be sarcastic too).

What is the problem here?

I’ll tell you what the problem is. You’re frustrated that (a) what you ‘believe’ to be fact has been proven not to be (b) you’re unwilling to let go of your stance even when refuted with PROOF that you’re wrong (c) since you can’t prove YOUR points, you are now just going to spout off bullshit arguments and try to muddy the water.

Dude, I’ve dealt with people smarter than you. Give it up. You’re wrong. Why don’t you just ADMIT it? It would be nice if for ONCE one of you pro-slaughter activists would just give it up and admit it. You’re W.R.O.N.G.

Since it seems you didn’t read any of the articles on my blog, I would like to refer you to a letter (I linked to it on my blog, I didn’t write it), written by the former mayor of a town, detailing a lot of what I’ve been saying. It is hands-down the BEST evidence about what I’ve been saying.

http://www.nashvillescene.com/pitw/archives/2010/04/09/former-mayor-horse-slaughterhouses-a-drain-on-taypayers-never-mind-the-ditches-of-blood

April 16, 2011 at 6:38 am

ron

“Nobody supported it.” What? Nobody supported WHAT?? What the hell are you even talking about?

This is very straight forward, rehomehyourhorse posted that it is acceptable for a person to euthanize a horse with a gun on their own farm. I had made the earlier post about the guy who was arrested for animal cruelty when he shot his own dog (which had a biting problem)

Anyway, nobody responded to rehomeyourhorse’s post and agreed with it..

I read the article from the link, it sounds like a butchering plant from the 1800′s very bad conditions. The species of animal does not dictate these poor conditions, cattle, hogs or sheep could have been butchered there and the same environmental hazards would have been present with the mishandling of wastewater and unwanted animal parts. The reason for the corporation not paying tax was because they were a foreign company, this had nothing to do with horses. This is another reason that more people from theUnited Statesneed to have the gumption to start their own businesses.

April 16, 2011 at 1:07 pm

rehomeyourhorse

Ron, you and I are really the only people talking on this page. So, while no one “supported” the comment, no one has objected to it either. Have you noticed that?

And I think it’s a whole different story when you’re talking about a dog. I DON’T believe anyone would support shooting a dog, ever, no matter what. Take it to the vet and have it PTS. I agree it’s a bit of a double-standard, but I think a dog would be even harder to shoot properly in any situation. I mean, if it’s been known to attack, and is coming at you to attack you, shoot it. Otherwise, a trip to the vet is what is called for.

As for your comments regarding the letter I linked to… are you sure you actually read the letter? First off, it is only ONE year old. Secondly, she is writing about her direct experiences. This is not from the 1800s. It is NOTHING other than recent, relevant information about HORSE SLAUGHTER.

She even has this line in her first paragraph: “regarding the commercial slaughter of American horses”…

If you want to completely ignore the facts, ALL the facts, that’s your choice. Each fact on its’ own is more than enough reason to never start up horse slaughter again. ALL the reasons combined… you’d have to have an IQ smaller than my shoe size.

I’m listening to you, but I’m obviously not reaching you.

April 16, 2011 at 1:48 pm

rehomeyourhorse

Sorry, did it again. Was logged in as rehomeyourhorse instead of notabreed. Whatever.

April 16, 2011 at 1:50 pm

ron

I think anyone here, ANYONE would say that a properly done bullet to the head would be MUCH more preferable than slowly starving to death locked in a paddock they can’t get out of.

People… am I wrong?

Nobody responded to this question which is why I brought up the lack of response as a lack of support…….Apparently I am the only supporter on this issue.

I disagree, I believe that many people think of horses and dogs on the same level or the horse at a higher level. But there are way more dog owners than horse owners. The guy with the dog wanted to save some money, he had a .22 rifle why pay the vet for something he could do himself. Should he have waited for the dog to attack someone? He didn’t want to do what he did, but he felt it was the best thing to do.

You misinterpreted my remark about the 1800′s slaughterhouse, I was simply describing the conditions described in the article as the archaic slaughterhouses in the mid-19th century.

Any and all of the negative facts (issues) concerning horse slaughter could be easily rectified. It is funny how you make it sound like butchering a horse will cause catastrophic environmental problems as if the horse is filled with toxins.LOL

April 17, 2011 at 1:24 am

Not A Breed

You’re the only supporter on the issue of using a gun to put down a dog. I’ll agree with that. But there are many supporters of the properly done bullet to the head for a horse. Do I need to prove that to you? Go read the fugly blog, where hundreds of horse people comment daily… lots of agreement over there. There is agreement on my own blog…

As I said, the only reason there’s no response here is because you and I are the only two chatting. No one else is around. Hard to find agreement in an empty room.

As for the slaughter issue, no one is going to do it properly, it’s too expensive to “do it properly” – bottom line. Add to that you can not prove horses have never been given banned drugs, and it’s a no go. If you want to raise horses as food chain animals, where their care and drug intake are monitored like they do for cattle (farmers do NOT give their food-chain animals banned drugs), go ahead because it is the ONLY way it should be done.

And yes, if you don’t get that the toxins in the horses body and blood cause environmental problems, again… you’re just ignorant. I’m sorry, what more can I say? You just WILL NOT admit the facts.

Finally, here’s a quote for ya: “Also, during a radio interview, a NVF (edit in: NVF stands for Natural Valley Farms the slaughter house) investor and director admitted that 16 million gallons of raw horse blood was left in a retaining pond upstream from the Qu’Appelle River. “Bug tanks“ which contain bacteria to break down horses’ blood become ineffective as their blood typically contains antibiotics, which kills off the bacteria. The plant resorted to illegally dumping the blood.”
And video evidence: http://www.flixya.com/video/1554764/Natural-Valley-Farms-Illegally-dumps-horse-blood-i

Where did they dump the blood that wouldn’t break down? Illegally onto farmers fields. That drained into a river.

That proves my point that the blood doesn’t break down due to TOXINS (not a word I would use, because it’s actually incorrect, but I’ll use it because you have).
Link here:  http://canadianhorsedefencecoalition.wordpress.com/2010/12/11/bouvry-slaughterhouse-temporarily-shut-down/

Here’s a report on a Canadian slaughter plant from 2007
(http://www.defendhorsescanada.org/pdf/envf0802.pdf)
Have fun reading it.

And now I’m done talking to you. If you don’t want to see the truth, don’t. That’s on you. I’m obviously not getting through to you with the FACTS.

April 17, 2011 at 8:27 am

Not A Breed

@ThinkGoat  Thanks again for letting us blather on in our argument.

April 17, 2011 at 9:41 am

thinkgoat

I’d say it’s been an interesting “debate”, but for it to be a debate, there has to be at least two participating. It’s been (and continues to be) an educational experience for me and I appreciate all your time and effort.

I’ve not followed the new links to read yet (but plan on it) – the letter the mayor wrote was excellent. And disturbing. I’ve never thought about horse meat, never thought about slaughter-houses until your postings. This has been an eye-opening experience.

April 17, 2011 at 9:49 am

thinkgoat

One more thing, Ron, they don’t shoot old hookers in the head either.

April 17, 2011 at 9:51 am

Not A Breed

I agree, it’s not a debate. It’s more like me banging my head against a brick wall. Unfortunately, that is what it is like when you talk to pro-slaughter activists.

That letter is, like I said, by far the BEST evidence you could ever ask for.

I don’t know what else to do, as I’ve refuted every single thing ron has said with FACTS, but he is ignoring them and refusing to see the truth. It’s sad really. I wish I could get through to more of them.

Obviously you have a tough stomach, so you should be able to read that last report that I linked. It’s eye-opening to say the least. And ALL the slaughter houses in the US were like this. They’re still that way in Canada. Nothing ever seems to change, which is why, ultimately, they were just shut down. There is just no way on earth horse slaughter is (a) humane and (b) good for anything other than big business making money. That’sit.

Thanks for listening.

And PS: LMAO at the old hookers comment.

April 17, 2011 at 9:57 am

These guys are so easy to read.  Then, of course, the trolls came out to play and it devolved from here.